[T2] type2 Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1

[Patrick Ludvig]

Subject: [T2] why won't it start.

Regarding the 78 not starting. Mine was an EXTREMELY hard starter, or no
start at all when the Temp 2 sensor by the # 3 cylinder was bad. It would
crank forever but wouldn't kick over. Once replaced, it would start, but
then that lead me to other small issues, like the brake booster to decel
valve or the aux air valve elbow would be cracked or there'd be a gap that
you couldn't see. It seems like you've done everything you can with the
distributor. (did you ever say if this was a 009, SVDA, Pertronix, etc?)
What I'm saying is that even bad vacuum is still vacuum and she should try
to kick over with what you have. I feel like there's something else going
on.

Did it run before? I didn't see you post anything about the temp 2 sensor.
I've had this problem now on both of my 78s. Let us know!

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 3:00 PM, <type2-request at type2.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. why won't it start. (accessys at smart.net)
>    2. Re: why won't it start. (Mike Converse)
>    3. Fridge relay - ground starter Solenoid and ignition switch ,
>       how do they work together ? (Christophe Guilbert)
>    4. Re: why won't it start. (Raceing Cajun)
>    5. Re: why won't it start. (Raceing Cajun)
>    6. Re: why won't it start. (accessys at smart.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 12:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
> From: accessys at smart.net
> To: type2 at type2.com
> Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.1506031215310.16745 at cygnus.smart.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> I have been pouring over wiring diagrams til my eyeballs have fallen out.
>
> . rechecked the valves.
> . rechecked timing
> . getting compression
> . getting spark
> . getting fuel.
>
> cranks hard.
> is an engine that ran well before being rebuilt
>
> so why won't the &(@&$ thing start.
>
> gotta be something stupid I'm missing but right now if someone walked up
> and offered to push it in the harbor for me I might think about it......
>
>
> ideas
> dumb or otherwise?
>
> thanks
> Bob
> oh a 78 pretty much stock with auto tranny
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:33:22 -0700
> From: Mike Converse <mikec at projectdesign.com>
> To: accessys at smart.net
> Cc: type2 at type2.com
> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
> Message-ID: <36066519-8BBF-4759-B91A-8550F1F6673B at projectdesign.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Bob,
>
> Few things come to mind:
>
>         Bad coil, rotor, cap, condenser, points, or wires - I know you are
> getting spark, but is it strong enough? verify/test all components of
> ignition system
>         Temp Sensor II is bad or shorted
>         too much air - remove, and inspect all hoses and connections. make
> absolutely sure you have a good seal between runners and cylinder heads.
>         bad cold start valve - may be flooding it, disconnect and try
> after 20 mins
>
>
>
> > On Jun 3, 2015, at 9:19 AM, accessys at smart.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have been pouring over wiring diagrams til my eyeballs have fallen out.
> >
> > . rechecked the valves.
> > . rechecked timing
> > . getting compression
> > . getting spark
> > . getting fuel.
> >
> > cranks hard.
> > is an engine that ran well before being rebuilt
> >
> > so why won't the &(@&$ thing start.
> >
> > gotta be something stupid I'm missing but right now if someone walked up
> and offered to push it in the harbor for me I might think about it......
> >
> >
> > ideas
> > dumb or otherwise?
> >
> > thanks
> > Bob
> > oh a 78 pretty much stock with auto tranny
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > type2 mailing list
> > type2 at type2.com
> > https://www.type2.com/lists/type2/listinfo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 09:56:29 -0700
> From: Christophe Guilbert <cguilbert at picasso.ucsf.edu>
> To: Type 2 List <type2 at type2.com>
> Subject: [T2] Fridge relay - ground starter Solenoid and ignition
>         switch , how do they work together ?
> Message-ID: <556F31BD.1010501 at picasso.ucsf.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi guy ,
>
> I am adding a second battery and want to be sure that I understand
> correctly how works the fridge relay in the AUX battery compartment
> behind the driver seat. I need to fully understand this before adding my
> AUX batter (more about that later)
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong but the fridge seems to be "double"
> controlled by terminal 85 and 86,
> 85 is energized by the ignition switch wire (blue) and 86 is energized
> by the ground starter solenoid wire (red/black)
>
> How 87 and 85 trigger terminal works in tandem exactly ?
>
> Here is my assumption:
>
> 85 and 86 seems to suggest that the relay is closed (selecting fridge
> over the LED panel) by a) after putting the key in , b) after engine
> started.  86 ( ground starter solenoid ) seem to do the trick by
> triggering the relay only AFTER the cranking phase (when the starter
> kick in) is completed so there's no damaging voltage peak to the fridge.
> Is that correct ?
>
> So I guess 85 is energized +12V as soon as you put the key in and stays
> on while driving.
> 86 is more obscure to me , does it goes grounded AFTER the cranking
> phase (starter running) so 85 and 86 allowing the relay to close. If
> that so how is 86 state before the cranking phase , not grounded or +12V
> ? if 86 is not grounded or +12V, than the relay stays open. After the
> cranking phase , 86 become grounded, 85 being already +12V, they close
> the relay and select the fridge.
> Does it really work like that ?
>
> Also my radio had this black/yellow strip wire which is energized and
> start the radio when I turn the key one crank .
> What the difference between that wire and the 85 ignition switch wire
> (blue)
>
> I am rebuilding my harness and all wires are out, this is very scary
> since I am so close from my trip to Alaska with the kids , I can't take
> a voltmeter and so any test to check how it works, so I really need the
> info.
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:55:35 -0500
> From: "Raceing Cajun" <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
> To: <accessys at smart.net>
> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
> Message-ID: <D07DCB716442410D8A98C6EF7EBFB4DA at BayouBillards1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>         reply-type=response
>
> Hello Bob,
>
>     Does the engine make any noise's when turn it over? Such as does it,
> backfire, pop, or act like it is hitting back against the starter?  It
> sounds like you have touched all the big points on the check list, GAS,
> FIRE, AIR, so I agree its something off the wall. Do you have a helper?
> Have
> someone turn it over, and with the distributor clamp loose, while its
> cranking, rotate the distributor by hand, and see if it, pops or hits back
> against the starter. You may have the cam timing off or distributor out of
> time, etc.. Check these things and get back to me, and we'll go through the
> cam timing check, its simple with no major tear down required.
>
> Skipper
>
>
> >Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 12:29:56 -0500
> From: "Raceing Cajun" <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
> To: <accessys at smart.net>
> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
> Message-ID: <FABCAE0C00234E5DBB3970D93CE6BCC1 at BayouBillards1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
>         reply-type=response
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> To check the cam timing; 1) Pull the valve covers 2) Remove the distributor
> cap 3) Rotate the engine by hand 4) Watch the pulley for the TDC mark,
> bring
> it to TDC, with valve gap on intake and exhaust for #1 cylinder (TDC mark
> aligns with case split) 5) When the pulley is at TDC, the distributor rotor
> should point at the ?Notch? on the lip at the top of the distributor
> housing, the #3 cylinder intake and exhaust valves should be at ?overlap?
> (in other words, the rocker arms should pass each other one closing, one
> opening). This checks the basic timing set up of the engine, Crankshaft in
> relation to the cam, the ignition (dis) in relation to the cam.
> When your sure the distributor is in time, the crank is at TDC, the #3
> valves at overlap, the rotor pointing at the distributor notch. If you have
> all that, then check the wiring order on the cap. Place #1 wire in the cap
> pole aligning with the notch, the in order of rotation, #4, #3, #2, and
> just
> to touch the silly side, make sure each wire goes to the proper plug! When
> you get all these ducks in a row, it should at least fire!
>
> Skipper
>
> >Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 13:49:54 -0400 (EDT)
> From: accessys at smart.net
> To: Raceing Cajun <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.1506031343450.11919 at cygnus.smart.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> have a rear starter switch so have tried the slowly turning dist while
> cranking. and all and it is not even trying to fire.  I used a little
> ether (I hate that stuff) and it did backfire and once tried to start. but
> not with the gas.??
>
> did check dist with timing mark and #1 cyl and all are lined up..
>
> this is "new" rebuilt engine and I checked the valves too. one thing seems
> like the hyd lifters are a bit soft. but should at least allow it to fire.
> and they are at two turns, I usually do 1 and a half.
>
> can someone take a photo of the wires on the coil.  I have two black wires
> coming from harness inside a single sheath, one I know goes pos side of
> coil and it is there but the other has me ???  I have an empty spade on
> Neg side of coil and I seem to recall all lugs had wires on them. but
> putting this wire on  there has no effect.....?
>
> thanks
> Bob
>
> On Wed, 3 Jun 2015, Raceing Cajun wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:55:35 -0500
> > From: Raceing Cajun <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
> > To: accessys at smart.net
> > Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
> > Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
> >
> > Hello Bob,
> >
> >   Does the engine make any noise's when turn it over? Such as does it,
> > backfire, pop, or act like it is hitting back against the starter?  It
> sounds
> > like you have touched all the big points on the check list, GAS, FIRE,
> AIR,
> > so I agree its something off the wall. Do you have a helper? Have someone
> > turn it over, and with the distributor clamp loose, while its cranking,
> > rotate the distributor by hand, and see if it, pops or hits back against
> the
> > starter. You may have the cam timing off or distributor out of time,
> etc..
> > Check these things and get back to me, and we'll go through the cam
> timing
> > check, its simple with no major tear down required.
> >
> > Skipper
> >
> >
> >> Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of type2 Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1
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